{"id":48359,"date":"2025-03-04T12:36:18","date_gmt":"2025-03-04T17:36:18","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/alumni.cornell.edu\/cornellians\/?p=48359"},"modified":"2025-03-04T12:36:19","modified_gmt":"2025-03-04T17:36:19","slug":"blau-pay-gap","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/alumni.cornell.edu\/cornellians\/blau-pay-gap\/","title":{"rendered":"Do Women in the U.S. Still Earn Less than Men?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

An alum who\u2019s an ILR professor emerita weighs in on the gender pay gap\u2014how it has narrowed, and why it persists<\/p>\n\n\n\n

By Beth Saulnier<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Economist<\/em> <\/strong>Francine Blau \u201966<\/em><\/a> has been studying the gender pay gap for more than half a century\u2014starting with the dissertation on the subject she completed at Harvard in the mid-1970s.<\/em> Now a Frances Perkins Professor with emerita status in ILR\u2014her undergrad alma mater\u2014she remains a leading voice on the topic, including appearances in major media like NPR\u2019s \u201c<\/em>The Indicator from Planet Money<\/em><\/a>.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

And Blau literally wrote the book on the subject.<\/em> The Economics of Women, Men, and Work<\/a>, coauthored with the University of Missouri\u2019s Anne Winkler and originally published in 1986, is now in its ninth edition with Oxford University Press.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Just in time for Women\u2019s History Month, we asked Blau to weigh in on how equal\u2014or unequal\u2014compensation is in 2025.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

You\u2019ve devoted your career to studying the fact that men get paid more than women. Is it a little depressing that the topic still requires scholarly attention?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

No\u2014in the sense that we have made a lot of progress.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

How so?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

When I started out, women\u2014on average, working full time, year round\u2014earned about 60% of what men earned. That rough figure\u2014it was actually 59%\u2014was so stable that some activists made buttons with \u201c59 cents\u201d on them; women were making 59 cents for every dollar that men made.<\/p>\n<\/div>

\"Francine<\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n

Now we\u2019re in the low 80%\u2014and that\u2019s not 100%, but it\u2019s a big gain. And at the same time, there have been enormous changes in women\u2019s roles.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What are some of those changes?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Back in 1975, it was not a given that married women\u2014and especially moms of young children\u2014would work outside the home. It was still unusual, and now it\u2019s the norm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And when I started out, women were scarce in management. There were even articles written that women couldn\u2019t successfully manage male employees; men would never accept it. And now, women are almost as well represented as men\u2014though as you move up the hierarchy, women get scarcer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

When I started out, women\u2014on average, working full time, year round\u2014earned about 60% of what men earned. Now we\u2019re in the low 80%\u2014and that\u2019s not 100%, but it\u2019s a big gain.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Women doctors and lawyers were rare, and now they\u2019re quite common. So we\u2019ve made enormous progress, but there are areas that still need work\u2014and I don\u2019t want to underplay them, or be complacent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Could you talk about the reasons why women and men\u2019s pay is still<\/strong><\/strong> unequal?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

One interesting thing is that some factors that used to be important aren\u2019t now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Back in, say, 1980, women on average had shorter work histories than men, and that reflected their tendency to be more loosely attached to the labor force\u2014to move in and out depending on opportunities or family demands. Now, that experience gap between men and women has almost disappeared.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In 1980, men were more likely to graduate from college than women; now, women are more likely to graduate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So why does the pay gap persist?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

In a study I did with ILR colleague Lawrence Kahn<\/a>, we found that despite gains like women moving into law, medicine, management, and veterinary science, occupational differences between men and women are still quite pronounced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Women are more likely to be in administrative support or service jobs, and in traditionally female professions like teaching and nursing. Men are more likely to be in blue-collar occupations, including some fairly well-paid craft and skilled jobs, and in STEM [science, technology, engineering, and math] occupations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

\u00a0Despite gains like women moving into law, medicine, management, and veterinary science, occupational differences between men and women are still quite pronounced.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Another big factor is that men and women tend to work in different industries. Women are very concentrated in education and health, for example, and men are more likely to be in manufacturing, construction, transportation, and utilities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You mentioned that at the highest levels, there\u2019s still a lot of disparity. Could you talk about that?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s what we\u2019ve been calling, for many years now, the \u201cglass ceiling.\u201d And on the plus side, it has more cracks: we have a handful of women CEOs, et cetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There are a lot more women at lower levels of management\u2014but in virtually every high-level area, as you go up, representation of women goes down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Although we\u2019ve made a lot of progress in academia, for example, there are many more women assistant professors than associates, and even fewer full professors. Or we could look at the political system: we still have not had a woman president, and women are underrepresented in Congress and as governors.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"The<\/figure>
\n

In terms of personal earning power: is it true that women are less likely to negotiate their salary?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes, absolutely. Research suggests that women shy away from negotiating, and that could certainly lower women\u2019s pay relative to men\u2019s.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Why do you think that is?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Two things. First, if women have fewer options, they have less ability to negotiate. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

But another significant thing is that it\u2019s outside the traditional gender role: \u201cYou shouldn\u2019t push yourself forward. You shouldn\u2019t seek to advance yourself.\u201d <\/p>\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Research has also found that for this reason, women negotiating can elicit negative responses.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So \u2026 you\u2019re damned if you do, and damned if you don\u2019t?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think that\u2019s the perfect way to put it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Women, unfortunately, are often walking a tightrope. If a woman is assertive, they say, \u201cShe\u2019s pushy; she\u2019s aggressive.\u201d But if a man acts the same way: \u201cHe\u2019s a go-getter!\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So women are constantly walking this line\u2014but if they don\u2019t act assertively or aggressively, they won\u2019t get anywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

On \u201cThe Indicator,\u201d you talked about a figure of 8%\u2014that it represents the portion of the pay gap that can\u2019t be ascribed to the kinds of employment differences we\u2019ve discussed. Can you elaborate?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

After we control for everything we could possibly control for in our statistical analysis, including occupation and industry, women still earn 8% less than men. So, there\u2019s a portion of the gap we can\u2019t explain\u2014what we call a \u201cresidual.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

Women, unfortunately, are often walking a tightrope. If a woman is assertive, they say, ‘She\u2019s pushy; she\u2019s aggressive.’ But if a man acts the same way: ‘He\u2019s a go-getter!’<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

We can\u2019t assume this residual is entirely due to discrimination; it may reflect, in part, factors like negotiating, which our analysis can\u2019t take into account. But we\u2019ve looked into it, and, based in part on other sources of evidence, we think a significant component does reflect discrimination.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It might not be overt; it could even be subconscious. You\u2019d think it would be unlikely today that someone would say, right out, \u201cI\u2019m not going to hire you because you\u2019re a woman\u201d\u2014but it could still be operating.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What has it been like to research gaps in women\u2019s wages over the past half-century, while actually being a working woman yourself?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

It was controversial when I came into the field. Economists are disproportionately male, and women in general were looked at a little suspiciously\u2014and a woman studying gender was looked at even more<\/em> suspiciously. \u201cIs she an ideologue?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019ve always felt that I have to establish my bona fides as an objective researcher, and I wrote something a very long time ago: \u201cIf the cause is just, the truth can\u2019t hurt it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Have you personally encountered pay discrimination?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

It was really ironic. When I was working on my dissertation at Harvard, I was a lecturer at Trinity College in Hartford, CT. I had been there a year, and I found out that a newly hired male colleague was getting a higher salary.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n

I wrote something a very long time ago: ‘If the cause is just, the truth can\u2019t hurt it.’<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

I was doubly upset, because one of the points I made in my dissertation was that when men and women are in exactly the same job, working side by side, the pay gap actually tends to be quite small.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Here, not only was I getting paid less, but it was countering my theory! [She laughs.<\/em>] In any case, in that particular example\u2014as soon as I mentioned it, it was fixed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Finally, do you have any words of wisdom for today\u2019s women workers?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Forewarned is forearmed. The hardest thing is when you\u2019re blindsided. So I hope the information that people get from me doesn\u2019t make them feel helpless, or that it\u2019s futile.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think it\u2019s the opposite: knowing what might happen helps you prevent it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Top: Illustration by Ashley Osburn \/ Cornell University. Other images provided.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Published March 4, 2025<\/p>\n\n\n\n

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